Translation Help?
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I wonder if anyone could translate or pick out some relevant information from a marriage cert for me? I'm ashamed to say my french is not great. The record in question is for Auguste Louis Aline & Albertine Esther Debressy. Auguste is my ancestor but he was a bit of a rogue, going on to marry 2 english women whilst still married & having children with Albertine! I'm descended from the 2nd english wife Ellen Neal. I can pick out the parents names for Auguste but wondered if there is any more info on this lengthy record to help me find them and move back another generation. Any other names or relationships, occupations etc. So far I haven't been able to find a marriage or birth certificates for them. Anyway the record is on page 33 & 34 here
http://archives.valdemarne.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo3OntzOjEwOiJ0eXBlX2ZvbmRzIjtzOjExOiJmYWNldHRlc19lcyI7czo0OiJyZWYxIjtzOjE6IjMiO3M6NDoicmVmMiI7czo3OiIzXzIwMTcwIjtzOjQ6InJlZjMiO2k6NDc7czoxMDoicG9zX2RlcGFydCI7aTowO3M6MTY6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWwiO2I6MTtzOjIxOiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sX21vZGUiO3M6NDoicHJvZCI7fQ==#uielem_move=479%2C43&uielem_rotate=F&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=60
If you could help i'd be really grateful. Thanks for looking
http://archives.valdemarne.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo3OntzOjEwOiJ0eXBlX2ZvbmRzIjtzOjExOiJmYWNldHRlc19lcyI7czo0OiJyZWYxIjtzOjE6IjMiO3M6NDoicmVmMiI7czo3OiIzXzIwMTcwIjtzOjQ6InJlZjMiO2k6NDc7czoxMDoicG9zX2RlcGFydCI7aTowO3M6MTY6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWwiO2I6MTtzOjIxOiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sX21vZGUiO3M6NDoicHJvZCI7fQ==#uielem_move=479%2C43&uielem_rotate=F&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=60
If you could help i'd be really grateful. Thanks for looking
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#49 -- 21 June 1851, Ivry-sur-Seine
Auguste Louis ALINE, 24 years 6 months old, carpenter, residing with his parents in this town, born in Paris 12e arrondissement on 15 DEC 1826, son of Pierre ALINE and Madeleine Marie REMY, both present and consenting, freed from military service.
Albertine Esther DEBRESSY, 16 years 9 months old, reader of drawings (?), residing in Gentilly (Seine) and legally residing with her father in Paris (8e arrondissement), born in Paris (6e arrondissement), daughter of François Napoléon DEBRESSY and Marie Madeleine GRESSIER (died 8e arrondissement in 1847)
Witnesses:
- Jean Marie Louis PEINTE (sp?), 71, friend of the husband
- Jacques MARTEAU, 41, friend of the husband
- Thomas Alexandre HARBE, 56, friend of the wife
- François Auguste HAUSSONNE, 35, uncle of the wife
Most of the Paris archives prior to 1860 were destroyed and only partially reconstructed.
http://archives.paris.fr/r/123/archives-numerisees/
Auguste Louis ALINE, 24 years 6 months old, carpenter, residing with his parents in this town, born in Paris 12e arrondissement on 15 DEC 1826, son of Pierre ALINE and Madeleine Marie REMY, both present and consenting, freed from military service.
Albertine Esther DEBRESSY, 16 years 9 months old, reader of drawings (?), residing in Gentilly (Seine) and legally residing with her father in Paris (8e arrondissement), born in Paris (6e arrondissement), daughter of François Napoléon DEBRESSY and Marie Madeleine GRESSIER (died 8e arrondissement in 1847)
Witnesses:
- Jean Marie Louis PEINTE (sp?), 71, friend of the husband
- Jacques MARTEAU, 41, friend of the husband
- Thomas Alexandre HARBE, 56, friend of the wife
- François Auguste HAUSSONNE, 35, uncle of the wife
Most of the Paris archives prior to 1860 were destroyed and only partially reconstructed.
http://archives.paris.fr/r/123/archives-numerisees/
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Thank you. You're very kind to help & I'm really grateful.
Am I right in thinking it said his parents were proprietors? I wonder what of though
I was aware of the loss of Paris records, so was excited to find this one. It does confirm that my ancestor Auguste Louis Aline was a bigamist. Marrying 3 times during the same time frame & maintaining 2 families at the same time. He travelled between Paris and England regularly. Rare in those days I assume I already had a lot of circumstantial evidence.
I just wish now I could find something on his parents. But no luck so far
Thank you again
Michelle
Am I right in thinking it said his parents were proprietors? I wonder what of though
I was aware of the loss of Paris records, so was excited to find this one. It does confirm that my ancestor Auguste Louis Aline was a bigamist. Marrying 3 times during the same time frame & maintaining 2 families at the same time. He travelled between Paris and England regularly. Rare in those days I assume I already had a lot of circumstantial evidence.
I just wish now I could find something on his parents. But no luck so far
Thank you again
Michelle
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"Propriétaire" simply means "owner". Farmers who owned their farms (as opposed to renting) often used that term, but it can mean ownership of any kind, and basically that you work for yourself and not for someone else.
Have you contacted the owner of this tree?
https://gw.geneanet.org/gpetitpas?lang=fr&p=auguste+louis&n=aline
Have you contacted the owner of this tree?
https://gw.geneanet.org/gpetitpas?lang=fr&p=auguste+louis&n=aline
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I did contact him a few years ago. Before I’d gathered as much information as I have now. Now I have irrefutable evidence that Auguste Louis ALINE with a family in Paris, was the same man as the one in Southampton and later Le Havre. In fact there have been a couple that I’ve shared with but none seem to have updated their tree. I’d happily share the proof that I have so they could make their own mind up. Maybe I’ll contact gpetitas again.
Thankyou for info on his parents occupation. I know they must have had some money as they sent their son to school in the uk. I had hoped the marriage record might contain some information or relatives to help me in the search for His parents, Pierre Aline & Madeleine Marie Remy.
Thank you again. It’s kind of you to help.
Thankyou for info on his parents occupation. I know they must have had some money as they sent their son to school in the uk. I had hoped the marriage record might contain some information or relatives to help me in the search for His parents, Pierre Aline & Madeleine Marie Remy.
Thank you again. It’s kind of you to help.
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If you are hopping between France and England often, living in Le Havre is more convenient.
We don't know how old the parents were when Auguste was born, but it's safe to estimate they were born somewhere near 1800, and very possibly died after 1860. They also appear to be lifelong Paris area residents. Have you looked for them in the death tables? Actually, in 1851 they live in Ivry-sur-Seine so I'd start there. Then look at nearby towns.
UPDATE: Found them!
http://archives.valdemarne.fr/ark:/71138/s005ba649f505d66/5ba649f63c879.ef=3&s=47
#151 (image 207) Pierre ALINE, died on 18 JUL 1854 at age 74 at his home (17 rue de la Croix Rouge), born in Sarras (Cantal), son of Jean ALINE and Jeanne CHASTANG. Declarants include his son Auguste Louis ALINE, residing 34/36 rue d'Austerlitz in Paris.
http://archives.valdemarne.fr/ark:/71138/s005ba64e3ebb2e8/5ba64e3f57842.ef=3&s=47
#67 (image 141) Marie Madeleine REMY, died 9 FEB 1859 at age 69 at her home (27 rue de la Croix Rouge), born in Guernsey (England), daughter of Simon REMY and Carine(?) THIBAULT.
You should be able to locate Pierre's baptism around 1780 and you're probably more familiar with searches in England than I am.
We don't know how old the parents were when Auguste was born, but it's safe to estimate they were born somewhere near 1800, and very possibly died after 1860. They also appear to be lifelong Paris area residents. Have you looked for them in the death tables? Actually, in 1851 they live in Ivry-sur-Seine so I'd start there. Then look at nearby towns.
UPDATE: Found them!
http://archives.valdemarne.fr/ark:/71138/s005ba649f505d66/5ba649f63c879.ef=3&s=47
#151 (image 207) Pierre ALINE, died on 18 JUL 1854 at age 74 at his home (17 rue de la Croix Rouge), born in Sarras (Cantal), son of Jean ALINE and Jeanne CHASTANG. Declarants include his son Auguste Louis ALINE, residing 34/36 rue d'Austerlitz in Paris.
http://archives.valdemarne.fr/ark:/71138/s005ba64e3ebb2e8/5ba64e3f57842.ef=3&s=47
#67 (image 141) Marie Madeleine REMY, died 9 FEB 1859 at age 69 at her home (27 rue de la Croix Rouge), born in Guernsey (England), daughter of Simon REMY and Carine(?) THIBAULT.
You should be able to locate Pierre's baptism around 1780 and you're probably more familiar with searches in England than I am.
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I do not see a town names Sarras in Cantal. There is one in Ardèche.
https://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/Liste_des_communes_du_Cantal
https://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/Liste_des_communes_de_l%27Ardèche
https://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/07308_-_Sarras
https://archives.ardeche.fr/n/registres-paroissiaux-et-d-etat-civil/n:163
If you don't find anything, ask in the Cantal forum using Google Translate to see if anyone can better identify the town.
https://www.geneanet.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=57519
Eric
https://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/Liste_des_communes_du_Cantal
https://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/Liste_des_communes_de_l%27Ardèche
https://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/07308_-_Sarras
https://archives.ardeche.fr/n/registres-paroissiaux-et-d-etat-civil/n:163
If you don't find anything, ask in the Cantal forum using Google Translate to see if anyone can better identify the town.
https://www.geneanet.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=57519
Eric
Hello,
There's no Sarras in Cantal but Sarrus which is now Fridefont:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fridefont
Best,
Claudine
There's no Sarras in Cantal but Sarrus which is now Fridefont:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fridefont
Best,
Claudine
Modératrice bénévole sans lien de subordination avec Geneanet / Volunteer moderator with no subordination to Geneanet.
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Oh my...how can I thank you!
I've looked so long for Auguste Alines parents. I will look at all this new information right away. And his mum being born in Guernsey makes so much sense. Auguste & his 2nd wife, Philippa Lawrence lived in Guernsey at one point. There's a newspaper cutting of an altercation between his wife & another woman.
I'm descended from the 3rd wife, Ellen Neal. They had 2 children in Southampton, my 2nd g.grandmother being the 2nd child, before they moved to Le Havre & had a further 5 children. At the same time he & his 1st wife, Albertine Debressy were having children. What surprised me even more was that I'm sure both wives knew of each other. Firstly the 'french' family knew of his death, the date & place, when his 'french' daughter married 3 months later. His 'french' son a few years after noted it too. Ellen Neal remarried 9 months after his death. She married another frenchman, Louis Malhomme, who was living in Paris with his parents at the time of Augustes death. So it seems likely Ellen Neal went to Paris to tell the french family of his death.
I can't believe how much trouble you've gone to & i'm immensely grateful. If I can help you or anyone else at all, I'd love to return the favour.
I've looked so long for Auguste Alines parents. I will look at all this new information right away. And his mum being born in Guernsey makes so much sense. Auguste & his 2nd wife, Philippa Lawrence lived in Guernsey at one point. There's a newspaper cutting of an altercation between his wife & another woman.
I'm descended from the 3rd wife, Ellen Neal. They had 2 children in Southampton, my 2nd g.grandmother being the 2nd child, before they moved to Le Havre & had a further 5 children. At the same time he & his 1st wife, Albertine Debressy were having children. What surprised me even more was that I'm sure both wives knew of each other. Firstly the 'french' family knew of his death, the date & place, when his 'french' daughter married 3 months later. His 'french' son a few years after noted it too. Ellen Neal remarried 9 months after his death. She married another frenchman, Louis Malhomme, who was living in Paris with his parents at the time of Augustes death. So it seems likely Ellen Neal went to Paris to tell the french family of his death.
I can't believe how much trouble you've gone to & i'm immensely grateful. If I can help you or anyone else at all, I'd love to return the favour.
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Good find, Claudine.
Pierre ALHINE, born and baptized on 27 FEB 1780, son of Jean and Jeanne CHASTANG (married in Fridefond), godfather Pierre BOUZAUX(?), godmother Marguerite COUDENE(?)
https://archives.cantal.fr/ark:/16075/a011324371640s7OsCO/1/173
Pierre ALHINE, born and baptized on 27 FEB 1780, son of Jean and Jeanne CHASTANG (married in Fridefond), godfather Pierre BOUZAUX(?), godmother Marguerite COUDENE(?)
https://archives.cantal.fr/ark:/16075/a011324371640s7OsCO/1/173
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So the Sarras Cantal in the death cert is likely Sarrus, Cantal. (now Fridefont). Is that correct?
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Take a look at this tree. Many events are in Neuvéglise, very close to Fridefont.
https://gw.geneanet.org/kiki69006?n=alhine&oc=&p=jean
https://gw.geneanet.org/kiki69006?n=alhine&oc=&p=jean
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Yes. That's confirmed by the baptism.
Not sure exactly what the relationship between Sarrus and Fridefont is or was, as both names appear in the old registers. I believe Sarrus is a section/neighborhood of Fridefont.
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I was just about to post a link to that baptism & ask if you thought it was the right one. I'm glad you found it though as you are better than me at interpreting some key information & figuring out spellings. I'm so excited, i just want to keep pulling the thread
I love the french records. They contain so much information. The english ones are rubbish in comparison.
Again thank you both. You're amazing!
I love the french records. They contain so much information. The english ones are rubbish in comparison.
Again thank you both. You're amazing!
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Claudine I noticed that about Fridefont in the baptism & was a bit confused as the page you linked to said the municipality of Sarrus took the name of Fridefont in 1909.