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Author Topic: Migrant farmer in the mid 1700's in France  (Read 1266 times)
ewalsh1

Messages: 5

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« on: 22 June 2011, 15:38:54 »

I believe my ancestor was a migrant farmer in the mid 1700's.  What did this mean at that time?  Is there a source to find out how they chose their place to farm and their original birthplace if it was not where they farmed?  Since I live in the United States of America I'm not sure what this means.  I know migrant farmer does  have a different meaning in the U.S. in 2011.  I'm having difficulty tracing him. Thank you to all that can answer my questions.
cpigman

Messages: 9

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« Reply #1 on: 12 June 2012, 19:57:20 »

I am researching my French ancestors in the mid 1600's as well.   They are connected to their home place in Correze in several documents.

I have found out that most of my ancestors at that time were called labourers.  That means to plough, to furrow, to churn up, or to dig into.
leftheart

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« Reply #2 on: 17 July 2013, 23:27:49 »

Migrant labourers in france really had no base... they traveled based on the crops of the region they are from.. when it was time to harvest grapes for wine many families brought their wagons and lived there on the farm..
finding these records will be incredibly hard unfortunately..
sparrow91

Messages: 145


« Reply #3 on: 19 August 2013, 14:31:36 »

finding these records will be incredibly hard unfortunately..

Not necessary if you have any information about the place. Then to find the birthplace you should have this information in some other document : wedding and death documents. Also, if your ancestors moved from the US, I think that you should be able to find where they went in some documents about ships and marina (like a name list about people who are going to travel). Hope my explication is quite clear, if you need help to make research in France (and French), send me a message  Cheesy

Have a nice day,

Sparrow91
cpigman

Messages: 9

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« Reply #4 on: 16 November 2013, 17:17:35 »

finding these records will be incredibly hard unfortunately..

Not necessary if you have any information about the place. Then to find the birthplace you should have this information in some other document : wedding and death documents. Also, if your ancestors moved from the US, I think that you should be able to find where they went in some documents about ships and marina (like a name list about people who are going to travel). Hope my explication is quite clear, if you need help to make research in France (and French), send me a message  Cheesy

Have a nice day,

Sparrow91

Greetings Sparrow91

I am looking for surname Pigmon in France.  The surname is in Correze, Limousin particularly around Chanac-les-Mines with various spellings of Pigmon, Piémont, Pÿmond, Piémond but the spelling seems to have been changed to Pimond and Pimont in current day records.  Record transcriptions of Pigmon record the name Pigmon as Pimond or Pimont.

I have also found the Pigmon surname in Rhone-Alpes.  My ancestors seem to have left France for England around 1600.

Could you check particularly the Rhone-Alpes records around 1600 or earlier for me?

Warm regards and many thanks,

Curtis Pigman (Pigmon/Pimond)

sparrow91

Messages: 145


« Reply #5 on: 16 November 2013, 18:19:08 »

Dear Curtis,

I can check some documents if you have more informations but I really can't check every single town in Rhone-Alpes. It's a region and in this region you have different departements (8 in total). It is not possible to check every town in every department !

For the records in Limousin, for now, documents are not online (will be by the end of 2014). So if you have names and if you're looking for special information, you can maybe send a letter to ask a copy (I can help you to write it if you want). Although, keep in mind that around 1600, it's becoming hard to find documents sometimes, depends of the regions and historical evenements.
I'm not living at all in South of France so it's not possible for me to go check in the building where the documents are.

I tried a research on familysearch for the UK, check if you have any informations :
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Apigmon~%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland

https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Apimond~%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland (this one looks interesting)

Try different research on familysearch you may find something interesting.

Let me know how things are going,

Best wishes,

Dawn
cpigman

Messages: 9

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« Reply #6 on: 16 November 2013, 21:47:37 »

Hello Dawn,

Thank you for your reply!

 
I had seen the first entries that you sent and the spelling Piggeman could be the line of my ancestry as William and George's names were always spelled different ways.  I have looked at most of the original records of Old Hunstanton and Norwich in Norfolk.  William whose Father was George had his name spelled Piggeman, Pigeman and finally at his death as Pigman. 

Attached is a pdf of a Correze, Limousin, France record as an example.  This family in Correze of Michel Pigmon could be the one I am looking for but I don't know for sure.  I also have a Leonarde Pigmon record from the same time period where her Father's name is Jean Piemond in the same document.

The records of Isere, Rhone Alpes  also contain the Pigmon family surname but with this spelling at a much later date.

Several generations ago some of the Pigman/Pigmon family in the U.S. were convinced the original spelling was Pygman and thus changed their spelling.  Very confusing because the second link you sent me has at lot of Pimond names in York where the Pyemont family of England resided and were connected to King Henry VIII through the Woodville family.   Could the confusion with the spelling be because they are all pronounced "Pee - mon" in French (or Piemontese to French?) regardless of the variations?

Could you search Isere records for Pigmon and Piemond/Pimond? 

My immigrant ancestor John Pigman first shows up in records in colonial Maryland in 1684 where he was age 55.  He and James Lyle were petitioning the court to be released from their indenture to Mr. Edward Pye.

Many regards,

Curtis

 

« Last Edit: 16 November 2013, 21:49:40 by cpigman »
sparrow91

Messages: 145


« Reply #7 on: 17 November 2013, 01:14:06 »

Good evening Curtis,

Spelling problems are sometimes hard to resolve as it seems there are many different Pigmon/Pigman in France (and even in England !).
So, if I understand well, you're not sure about the roots in Correze or even in Isere, is that right ? Maybe there was different families with this family name... My grandpa is from South-West, in the same department, 3 or 4 families were wearing the same family name, without any link...

Thing is : it seems that you can't really find something with familysearch for the French part. In France pretty much each departement has its documents records online, and sometimes (but this is very rare !) you have a search engine to check names in every department's towns (for exemple the department of Marne).

Unfortunately, Isere seems do not have this kind of searching help. And in France, before the Revolution (1792) you have to read the documents from church, and most part of the time you have to read all the pages in each record. For the period you're looking for, you'll probably have to read every record from the period you want (example : records of baptism weddings and death from 1600 to 1700), to TRY to find your ancestors (sometimes many hours without any results). It could be okay for just 1, 2 or even 3 towns (which already represents a lots of hours !!), but you definitively can't do it for all the 533 towns that Isere contains, and specially if you're not even sure that records you're looking for are in Isere...

That's why we need more informations. How did you discover that your ancestors where from France ? Were they in France, and then moved to England and then to the US ?

You can send me a private message and if you want tell me your French's part story, and I can have a look at your French records if you want. Or send me the link for the French part from your family tree on geneanet, and I could try to check from that.

Hope what I tried to explain is clear,

Best wishes,

Dawn

sparrow91

Messages: 145


« Reply #8 on: 17 November 2013, 01:19:54 »

N.B : Just an idea, but maybe... Maybe Pimond was the French name changed as Pigman in England, easier to pronunce... Because if I tried to pronunce Pimond with en English accent, you're not so far from Pigman.
Although, do you know what were your ancestors job ? Because Pigman... Maybe farmers ? Or It could also be kind of joke from English people to new French settlers... I think we should keep all this in mind  Wink

You said previsoulsy : "My ancestors seem to have left France for England around 1600". But on your family tree, it's written that Jean Pimond was born in Correze around 1624... So it seems that your ancestors moved back to France... And Jean's parents are probably from France don't you think ? So, are you sure about the English part ? And if you're sure for the English part, are you sure about the periods ?

With what I can see on your family tree, I understand that your ancestors moved for England/US after 1600. Tell me if I'm wrong or if maybe I read something wrong  Wink

Many regards,

Dawn
« Last Edit: 17 November 2013, 01:28:46 by sparrow91 »
cpigman

Messages: 9

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« Reply #9 on: 17 November 2013, 02:19:28 »

Thanks Dawn for the ideas,

"N.B : Just an idea, but maybe... Maybe Pimond was the French name changed as Pigman in England, easier to pronunce... Because if I tried to pronunce Pimond with en English accent, you're not so far from Pigman."

Yes, I think this is probably correct as far as the pronunciation.  The part I cannot work out is:  Is the "g" silent as in Pignon (Peen - Yawn).  Perhaps they were trying to work all this out in the 1600's.
Pignerol (former spelling) is another example as in Pinerolo (current spelling), Italy.

Also:
dʒ  or j sound in English  as in Pidʒmon =  Piggeman or French Pigmon or Italian Piémonte   pronounced in French as Pee je moan.

Piedmont (Italian: Piemonte, pronounced [pjeˈmonte]; Piedmontese and Occitan: Piemont; French: Piémont)


"Although, do you know what were your ancestors job ? Because Pigman... Maybe farmers ? Or It could also be kind of joke from English people to new French settlers... I think we should keep all this in mind  Wink"

Also I believe that could be correct!  Most people will not get past the pig farmer theory.  The French name was Anglicized upon arrival in England!   People make fun of names all the time.  It is something you learn to live with I suppose.  Our name in Kentucky was in most censuses as Pigmon including the 1940 U.S. census.

John Pigman of Maryland was a cooper (barrel maker) which was a trade he learned somewhere for wine or olive oil? and he raised tobacco and had a few cows. 


"You said previsoulsy : "My ancestors seem to have left France for England around 1600". But on your family tree, it's written that Jean Pimond was born in Correze around 1624... So it seems that your ancestors moved back to France... And Jean's parents are probably from France don't you think ? So, are you sure about the English part ? And if you're sure for the English part, are you sure about the periods ?

With what I can see on your family tree, I understand that your ancestors moved for England/US after 1600. Tell me if I'm wrong or if maybe I read something wrong  Wink"

This is the part that is not for sure.  I do not have records that prove my ancestors coming to the American colonies.   I have even done extensive y-DNA tests and the comparisons between myself and another Pigman from Maryland are inconclusive.  What I mean is:  it could be that my North Carolina/ Kentucky branch of the family could be a different family from the Norfolk, England one.  I cannot find a Pimond/Pimont who could do a test for further comparison because well - DNA testing is illegal in France!

My 4th great grandfather Leonard Pigmon's Father may have come directly from France.  I just don't know which village to look in.  I have attached another file with Leonarde Pigmon.  I thought for a time my 4th great grandfather could have been named for her but probably not.

Regards,
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon/Pimond)
curtisnsissy.tripod.com


« Last Edit: 17 November 2013, 02:23:46 by cpigman »
cpigman

Messages: 9

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« Reply #10 on: 17 November 2013, 04:05:13 »

"Unfortunately, Isere seems do not have this kind of searching help. And in France, before the Revolution (1792) you have to read the documents from church, and most part of the time you have to read all the pages in each record. For the period you're looking for, you'll probably have to read every record from the period you want (example : records of baptism weddings and death from 1600 to 1700), to TRY to find your ancestors (sometimes many hours without any results). It could be okay for just 1, 2 or even 3 towns (which already represents a lots of hours !!), but you definitively can't do it for all the 533 towns that Isere contains, and specially if you're not even sure that records you're looking for are in Isere..."

I have gone page by page in several villages in Correze because even though they are indexed, Pigmon is indexed as Pimond.  I suppose I need to do that in Saint-Étienne and in Isere as well. 

For some reason I can't find the reference but one of them has a Jean Piemond in Saint-Étienne.  Is that in Isere?


"That's why we need more informations. How did you discover that your ancestors where from France ?"

The family story handed down through the generations says we were French and had to leave the "old country" because of political troubles.  They had to leave the mansion (or maison?) with two old maids in it. 

One of my Grandfather's cousins was John Pigmon and he remembered seeing an impressive French document in his parents' house.  He was so convinced we were French he insisted to all his students with our name that it be spelled Pigmon instead of Pigman including my Father!  Old newspapers in Kentucky from the 1880's refer to our family as being an "old" French family.  Additionally my 4th great grandfather married Patience Thompson "of French descent. 

Perhaps the most interesting is a letter written to my Grandfather in 1954 from his cousin.  My Grandfather apparently had asked him why their cousin's first name was Rochambeau. The answer was that General Washington (later became President George Washington) and French General Rochambeau had visited the Pigmon home in North Carolina in 1781 just before the decisive Battle of Yorktown.  This was the battle that effectively won the Revolutionary was against the British with help from the French.  Apparently General Rochambeau knew our family and my ggg grandfather named their cousin Rochambeau.

Also, my y-DNA in the French Heritage Project closest matches  are French men.  Closest matches are surnames:  Bourbon, Perry, Perrot,  Drapeau, etc.


"Were they in France, and then moved to England and then to the US ?"

I don't really know about this part because we cannot find (birth, immigration/emigration) records of John Pigman of Maryland.  Incidentally, I am not even positive he is my direct ancestor.  I have John Pigman b.1629 d.12 Oct 1712.  His son was Mason Pigman b. 1710 Maryland d. 1790 North Carolina ??  Here is where it gets tricky: 
I am not sure Mason was Leonard's Father.  There are no records about that.  Leonard Pigmon b. 1748 d. 1835 Kentucky.  From Leonard Pigmon on down the records are fairly solid.



"You can send me a private message and if you want tell me your French's part story, and I can have a look at your French records if you want. Or send me the link for the French part from your family tree on geneanet, and I could try to check from that."

These records are so long ago they are hard to find/read etc.  Also, before 1600 they are the exception as well!

Thank you for your help,
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon/Pimond/Pimont)

curtisnsissy.tripod.com
« Last Edit: 17 November 2013, 04:12:11 by cpigman »
sparrow91

Messages: 145


« Reply #11 on: 17 November 2013, 16:13:55 »

Hello Curtis,

Well, this is a lot of information, it is very interesting to read  Cheesy DNA test are illegal here indeed, but I think sometimes it could be useful !
It is very interesting to compare how you can make your family tree in different contries.

Saint-Etienne is in Loire but it's very close to Isere. Still Rhone-Alpes region.
If they had 2 old maids it would probably be a "maison'. Also, with all your elements, it seems that it's possible cause if your family helped with the US Revolution, it means they were from aristocraty.

"my y-DNA in the French Heritage Project closest matches  are French men.  Closest matches are surnames:  Bourbon, Perry, Perrot,  Drapeau, etc" : here's a point (just a supposition but still...). Bourbon was the family name for many kings in France, the Bourbon Dynasty (Louis XIV, Louis XV, Louis XVI and others). This could explain all the links with noble families (maybe King Henry VIII), and general Rochambeau. People close to the power, nobles who could help for the war...

From which documents did you "lost the way" to find more ancestors ?
It is a little bit hard for me to figure out as I have no documents and no "real" tree (as a picture or something).
Anyway it's a very interesting quest and I'll be glad to do what I can do to help  Cheesy

I'll try to check more your website tonight.

Best wishes,

Dawn
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